Reverend Katie O’Dunne: Faith, OCD, And The Marathon Of Mental Health

This is The Unholy Union. A podcast where you'll be subjected to highly offensive marital discourse. If you do not feel insulted during this week's episode, don't worry, we'll try harder next week. If you can relate to our ramblings, we wanna be friends with you. If you believe that we take it too far or our mouths are too much for you, then with as much love and sincerity as we can muster, you can suck it. Welcome to the Unholy Union.

Welcome back, fam.

Hello.

We've got a new guest with us. Yes. We do. One that is going to be near and dear to my heart.

It's specifically a topic, but absolutely reverend Katie O'Dunne is going to be someone that I hope we continue having conversations with specifically about this matter. Yes. But let's let's give a little intro here. So reverend Katie O'Dunne is the founder of Faith and Mental Health Integrative

Services. I'm

I'm I'm on it today. I promise. Yeah.

And

You wanna try that again?

I had it. An organization helping individuals with OCD and related disorders live into their faith traditions as they navigate evidence based treatment.

So prior to this, she spent about 7 years

serving as the academy chaplain and the RL Brand Junior, 35 chair of religious studies at Woodward Academy in Atlanta.

And while serving in this role, she also served as a consultant on interfaith programming for schools around the country. So Katie is proud to be an IOCDF

lead advocate, and I can't wait to talk about what that is. An emerging minister in the United Church of Christ and an endurance athlete

tackling 50 ultra marathons for OCD.

She is currently pursuing her at Vanderbilt to continue with her focus on faith and mental health. She graduated from Candler

School of Theology at Emory with her master of divinity and certificate of religion and health in May of 2015. So

that's a lot.

So I feel like we need to take a step back and almost like

how did you get your start in all this? What brought you to seek education,

to start these organizations?

Can you tell us your story?

Yes.

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I am super pumped to be here and just to connect with you all and to hopefully join this awesome fam in in different ways. Yes.

I'm all about that.

And, you know, for me, I've navigated OCD since before I can remember.

And most of my earliest memories

involved trying to make sure that every single person was safe. Even when I was in elementary school, it was coming home and confessing all sorts of different worries to my parents. It was touching things in a particular order because I thought something bad would happen if I didn't.

But it was undiagnosed for a very long time. And,

for me, I wasn't diagnosed really from onset

until,

for probably 17 or 18 years, which is on average that that kind of OCD,

space.

But it it plagues me in different ways throughout my life and, went up and down.

For better or for worse, I was incredibly high functioning.

The downside to that was it prevented me from getting treatment for a really long time,

and

got into

grad school and really everything started to explode.

So I moved into seminary at Emory to do my master of divinity.

And the OCD that I had been kind of keeping under wraps

started to get really bad where I wasn't sleeping anymore because I was spending all night checking oven, stove, lock, then praying, oven, stove, lock, prayer.

I was

driving back to spaces where I was interning and trying to break in in the middle of the night to make sure candles were blown out and that nothing would burn down or that a crime wasn't being committed.

And at this point, I had some inkling that this might be OCD because of some psychology classes I was taking

and shared with a mentor that I thought I might be navigating this thing called obsessive compulsive disorder, and maybe I should seek treatment.

And the unfortunate thing that I now talk very, very loudly and openly about is that at the time, I was told, no. Don't seek treatment. You won't pass your psych evaluations. You won't get ordained.

This will mess up your career in ministry.

So I didn't tell anybody.

Actually studied how to lie on my psych evaluations, which in retrospect is really strange,

to try to avoid

anybody detecting that I had this thing going on.

So Move Through Seminary was ordained

and actually started in a really large chaplaincy role at age 25.

And OCD

loves to latch on to the things that are the most important to us, which I'm sure we'll talk about more today. Oh, yeah. And I was heading into this role where I was the chaplain for 27100

students. I was the first female in the role, and I was 25. My predecessor had been there 25 years, and it was like, you have to get this right. That's how I felt. And it was very much

breeding ground for OCD to go from where it was already at a 100

to about a1000. So for me, for folks who are listening, I it sounds like we talk about OCD on this podcast quite a bit, but OCD involves obsessions and compulsions. And

often, folks assume it's just one particular area or it's about organization, and it's not. For me, that was very much

taboo intrusive thoughts. There's always things that really oppose who you are as a person.

So my OCD related to harm.

It related to harm of others, and there was a big fear that I wasn't actually this nice chaplain, but what if I am secretly this horrible, dangerous person?

And the very long story short for me is I was working in the area of grief, tragedy, trauma, and loss. I was the first line

for thousands of families and faculty and staff anytime something bad would happen,

and it did often while I was there. And, my OCD found a way to blame me for every single instance

to the fact that I was officiating funerals,

figuring out tangible ways that I was responsible for whatever had happened. So, eventually, it got to the point where I was going home from my role as a chaplain, sitting on the floor, like, rocking back and forth, trying not to calm the police on myself for crimes that I hadn't committed just in case.

Yep.

So Yeah. Yeah.

That's that's that's where

I get passionate about it. Yeah. Sounds like you can relate to that. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So much of what you said, I think,

just is

very

familiar, I guess, we'll say, in things that we've discussed.

When do you feel like you could pinpoint, like, the start? You actually said

this is

something that I need to be aware of. Because I feel like a lot of people go through the motions of this is how I am, and then suddenly it's like, oh, wait.

There's more to it for sure because I had mine

throughout my childhood. I just never

knew what that I just thought I was being weird. It's not until 2019 when it finally snapped and it was

this, like you said, a100, now it's a1000.

That was the point where it was debilitating

OCD. I couldn't I didn't wanna leave the house. I didn't want to do anything,

but

I can't even pinpoint mine

when I figured it out other than 2019 when it broke. And I was like, something's going on here that's bigger than

just me compulsively washing my hands or anything like that.

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it was, a and it it really is hard to pinpoint the time. But I think for me, when I knew I actually

needed to get help was when it was no longer really an option for me. It was

I can't

In in retrospect,

as sick as I was, and I was probably doing upwards of 20 hours of compulsions a day,

And I was so good at hiding it. I was in a super public role.

Nobody knew. I was, like, teaching in classes. I was in front of thousands of people making speeches, and I was compulsing in my head to make sure I didn't kill somebody in the parking lot. I mean, it's

so it was so intense.

But I hit a point where I

was so low. It was hard for me to put one foot in front of the other.

It was I was going to the bathroom between

classes of teaching kids with smile on my face to throw up because I was so anxious.

And it was really a family member, my mom at the time, who was like, I think you need to seek treatment. And I still had so much shame,

but was very fortunate to find an awesome provider in Atlanta to do exposure and response prevention with as the gold standard treatment for OCD.

And

does not mean it was an easy process, but it saved

my life. And I guess the to answer your original question coming out of that, that's how I started to get into this work around faith in OCD.

Because, unfortunately, through this journey, some of the things that my OCD latched on to were actually me losing students to their own mental health struggles in spaces where they didn't speak up

because of their faith tradition and because of having shame around what that would look like and mean in their religious community.

And I wanted folks to know that you can, in fact, be a religious leader and seek mental health treatment,

that those things are not in opposition to each other at all. But, actually, by engaging in our mental health, we can fully be the people that we are created to be.

So it sounds like

it OCD and and just other mental health disorders are stigmatized

in the,

you know, religious side too. I I mean, I'm religious. Not I'm not gonna pretend like I am

a super

passionate

practicing Christian, but Yeah. I I'm like a super inclusive kind of, like, hippie interfaith minister, so we're we're we're fine. Right.

Okay. No. No. But, I I mean, I believe in in God and all that, but

that's crazy to me that it is

stigmatized within that circle because of what is preached.

I know it's stigmatized in our society in general,

all mental illnesses. It it that's probably the reason why OCD takes 17 years on average to get,

you know, begin treatment.

Mhmm. But to find out that it's also stigmatized within

religion is is

eye opening to me. It's kinda surprising.

Oh, yeah. And that's so that's become my entire life. And and what I often see in so many religious communities is mental health is being discussed,

more, but more from a mental health space of

we can meditate, and we can do self care, and we can do all of these things, not from a space of diagnosable mental illness and clinical mental health treatment,

evidence based treatment. So,

particularly, the area that I work in now is religious scrupulosity,

which is a

subtype

of OCD. Well, some people consider it a subtype. Some actually considered an umbrella that lots of subtypes might fall under. But,

in essence,

OCD latches on to what's important to us, so, of course, it might latch on to faith. So

each and every day, I work on cases for folks who are Jewish and Christian and Muslim and Hindu and Buddhist that the religious practices that they're engaging in repetitively are from a space of shame, fear, guilt of the disorder

rather than actual meaning in their life. And it's actually taking away their faith in their life. So all of my research

work and the work I do with clinicians is around how do we parse that out in ways that are culturally responsive while understanding someone's religious practices, respecting those,

but also making sure that they feel affirmed in legitimately getting the treatment that they need.

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's definite like, that's

golden work for sure. I mean

Seriously. It it's

it's

mind boggling how there's

doctors for everything.

Your heart, your brain, your legs, your toes, things like that, but mental illness has always been like this

red headed stepchild.

Well, it's almost like pretty. It's pretty. Right? Mental health should be pretty. You don't ever wanna talk about the nasty of it. Right? The scary of it because

it becomes this huge monster.

And if you get to that point, it's you said it yourself that it's all about shame. You start to feel like, what am I doing, and why is why me?

So,

I guess, what do you think, if any, are there, you know, societal contributions to that? Like, why do we feel like maybe this is an uptick in something that we're experiencing as a country and maybe even on a broader scale?

Yeah. I mean, I I have so many different different thoughts on this. So on on one hand, I do think

there is thankfully, more people are talking about, mental health even even though I'm saying, you know, not necessarily in the church with mental illness or in religious communities, there is

on social media and in different spaces. There are conversations around mental health. So I think there are more people that are seeking treatment, which is really a beautiful thing. I think as we hear about it more, there are more people who are willing to step up and and say, okay. This is what I'm experiencing.

But at the same time,

I think

there is such a high level of

pressure and stress

and need for perfectionism.

There is this constant we are always connected to one another that I don't think creates

mental illness, but I think can exacerbate it.

And I often think about this in faith communities,

where I I deeply believe where there's all sorts of different debates around, are you predisposed to have OCD? Do you end up with OCD because of your environment?

I I typically fall in the camp that I believe, in some way, you're predisposed to have it, but the environment that you're in can either feed and

kinda foster that, or you can go in a different direction.

And with faith and religious communities,

I see so many people end up in

kind of spiritual abuse scenarios or scenarios that are really unhealthy

that, yes, maybe they were predisposed to have OCD,

but it took on the form of religious scrupulosity

because of what they were told, because of the rigidity that they experienced. Or maybe they experienced something else in their life where

that's the form that OCD took because it was the thing that was the most important and drilled into them as the scariest.

So I'm not sure if does if that's something that resonates with you in your own your own OCD journey. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Mine was harm OCD,

and it had to do with our daughter.

I had

it was like I said, it was debilitating, but it was harm OCD revolving around her,

and it

my environment, what caused it,

which this sounds terrible for lens,

but I was going through this really bad bout of anxiety because I had started a new job.

Multiple panic attacks in the ER, all the Ativan.

It Yeah. Ativan,

clonazepam,

all that stuff. It was a constant

in and out of the hospital for just panic attacks. It wasn't OCD yet.

Well,

Lynz asked me. We were on a walk. She was like, is our daughter a contributor

to your panic attacks? And then that I felt it

immediately broke,

and I could feel it. It was like the dam breaking, and it washed over me, and panic set in. And that's when

I was at my worst. Like, OCD

reared its ugly head and I was done.

It it all spiraled, like, could I hurt her? Would I hurt her? Am I a monster?

And you just question yourself deep down like your soul. It's like I've never hurt anybody in my life. Well.

You know

What? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. What if? OCD, the famous question is what if? What if I do what if I snap? What if I wake up tomorrow and I hate

everything? You know, whatever it is. No matter how much you feel you know yourself. Yeah. It it What if? It makes you question it. Well, and the more you try to prove it to yourself, the stronger

that becomes. And and, again, you know, for you, it's whenever we try to fight it, whenever we tell ourselves, but I'm not that person. It's when we give it importance, OCD Yes. Be more stronger be even stronger because we're giving it attention. You're confirming that fear

that is, you know, to your brain that it's valid.

It's a valid fear because you are now

wondering if you could do it. Absolutely.

Building those neural pathways. Right? That's it. Constant

That's it. And it was it was brutal, but I went through ERP. It was very hard,

but it it's life changing, and it's necessary.

If you have OCD,

I think

you need to do yourself a favor and go do that therapy. It's hard work, but it makes your life

better.

Well, I think that's interesting,

as a thought, though, because when you were going through ERP, right, there's you're exposing yourself to our daughter at at all times. Right? You have to build up that

mentality, that exposure, that build the neural pathways that you this isn't you. Right? For sure.

But for theology purposes,

I mean,

again, we've already said that we're we are Christians, but when you're thinking about theology, it's almost like this imaginative thing. And I I don't mean it the way it sounds, but it's True.

Not thank you. It is a very spiritual thing. That is a good word. Whereas our daughter is a tangible person. She's right in front of you. You can do that. So to what extent is the exposure in a theology type of situation?

Yeah. Oh, this is such a good question. This is like I get so excited talking about this. Yeah. Like right here. Oh. So, I mean, a couple of things. Well, ERP,

I think, in and of itself, and this sounds super strange, but my doctoral work is actually on ERP as a spiritual practice. And that sounds

super bizarre and random.

But the entire idea of that is a spiritual practice is defined by us doing things that are really challenging in favor of connecting with the divine in powerful ways.

And ERP,

as a process, we're doing these exposures. We're doing these things that are really, really hard. We're engaging in response prevention. It feels icky. It feels challenging.

And, ultimately, in all the cases I've seen,

people reconnect with their life. They reconnect with God. They reconnect with what's important to them through this kind of spiritual practice, through this really big leap of faith. That becomes essential, I think, for folks to know as they're doing ERP around religious scrupulosity

because they're often asked to do things that might feel like they are opposing their faith when they're really not. For sure.

So my biggest job actually is I'm not a clinician, but I work on a lot of treatment teams and kind of help folks navigate

within each religion and as a in a smaller space within each sect and within each denomination.

What is someone's faith and what's their OCD, and how do we develop exposures that make sense for that person? So that might be

allowing

or intentionally writing and carrying an intrusive thought into your place of worship. It might be praying imperfectly.

It might be

if you have ritual washing as a part of your tradition, not washing that one extra time or not doing it perfectly before you engage in your prayer.

There's all different forms this can take. I think with religion, the tricky thing is we also don't wanna ask someone to do something

that completely opposes their practice. We're not gonna ask someone who is keeping Kosher to eat a bacon cheeseburger. That's just gonna make them leave the treatment entirely, and it's not gonna help. So it's

with exposures around religion, I say it's a discomfort versus disrespect line. We're making someone really uncomfortable

without crossing the line of their religious doctrine, which sometimes can be kind of a a puzzle and an adventure for each case. That is interesting.

I've never thought about that because

my exposures were not easy to do, but they were easy for my therapist to say, hey. Do this

because it was strictly the harm stuff. It's like, okay. Go eat

a steak dinner next to your daughter with a steak knife. I was gonna say hold a knife. Yeah. Exactly.

Don't don't get up. Don't put the knife away. Just don't do anything. Sit with that discomfort

while

trying

to manipulate a a therapy around

somebody's

rules,

That's

crazy.

Because, you know, like, mine, obviously, I don't wanna sit. I didn't wanna sit next to my daughter with a steak knife in my hand, but

I knew that was the path to get better, but having to change the therapy based upon religion because like you said, people will leave

if you're asking them to

go against what they truly believe in. Yeah. Why? Well, and even what you just said of the I don't want to, that's actually what I when I train clinicians

around, hey. Where's the line? I always ask them

I I always say, tell your client

ask them why they don't wanna do this thing. And if the answer is, well, I don't want to because it's scary and I'm scared something bad's gonna happen, it's like great exposure. Ding, ding, ding. Let's do this. If the answer is

nobody else in my entire congregation would do that and I can't live with myself,

It's like, okay. This might be something that's violating their religious practice. And to be able to dig a little bit deeper and say,

kind of an 80 20 rule. Would 80% of the people in your congregation do this as an exposure, and and what does that look like?

So I think yeah. So that that can be kind of a helpful piece, but it's, yeah, it definitely takes some creativity in

navigating.

For sure. For sure. I bet it is.

Wow. Well, I mean, it one of the similarities that I'm noticing between both of your stories is you had to get to a point where there was no more ignoring it. Right? Like, you could not

move another day past this until you received the support you wanted, until or there's the support you needed and or treatment.

I mean, do

you

either of you

feel as if, like, that is the point, or is there something that people can do as a way to overcome it before it gets to that point? I mean,

just from your experiences.

So I you know, as you say that, I'm like, I feel like y'all totally have to have my partner Ethan on the podcast. So he is an OCD advocate, and he actually

hit rock bottom,

lost everything,

lost and did not have a home. I mean, it was it was very he was at a very low point, and that was his switch flipped of I am literally gonna die if I don't put one foot in front of the other and be willing to risk all of the scary stuff coming true

in order to move forward with my life.

But he often tells people the lowest in his case, is one of the most severe that I've ever heard, and it's so neat to see where he is now and in such a different space.

But what he often tells people is he doesn't want people to have to get to that that point and that he doesn't think that they have to. And I think that's where

advocacy really comes in,

and letting people know that there is an option before hitting rock bottom. For me, it was hitting rock bottom and realizing I can't step forward, so I guess I have to do something about this. But I think I love getting to talk about OCD

pretty much all the time because, I want folks to know you're not alone, and it also doesn't have to get that bad. I love when I work on cases with, like, an 8 or a 9 year old that this is just popping up,

and we can let them know just through treatment. Nope. We can embrace these fears now. We don't have to get that low in order to get better.

Right. Right. I think it's, like you said, advocacy

and education

because I actually checked myself into a mental hospital because once those thoughts started pouring in, I was like, no. This is this is a line drawn. Line in the sand. So I checked myself in.

Well, they

even being in there with a psych, psychiatrist,

he was wishy washy on what was wrong with me. It was terrifying. So I'm like, this guy's a doctor, and he doesn't know what's happening. He doesn't know why. No. None OCD specialists don't know. It's so scary.

Exactly. That's what the problem is. It's like, I'm going to this dude. He's your general practitioner for mental stuff, and

he was like, ah, you might have OCD,

or

you just might have bad anxiety with intrusive thoughts. And it was throwing medication at a wall. And that's what it was. I they put me on, like, 7 different things in that hospital,

which with all of it made me feel like garbage.

It wasn't just an SSRI,

but it was

like Resperto antipsychotic

medication and things of that nature.

Well,

I leave that hospital and on my bill of

treatment, they said, you need to go to this therapist.

I go to this therapist. She's just a talk therapist,

which is

the enemy of OCD, period, because they give you reassurance, like, it's candy. Right?

And Absolutely. It's literally just putting fuel on the fire of OCD. That's all. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I they they sent me there.

And I go there, and you know what the first thing she says to me after she reads my medical records? She said, are you schizophrenic?

She said that to me as an as somebody who didn't know they had OCD or didn't really know if they were schizophrenic.

So there you go. I'll narrow up. Yeah. Here goes another,

here goes another

intrusive thought cycle that I have to go through. I have to worry and think, uh-oh, did I just hear something?

Mhmm. Did somebody just talk to me? How many people get diagnosed

with,

oh, gosh, so many different disorders, but my partner was very much the same way. And then it's terrifying. And that becomes the next obsession.

And then you're still not in the right treatment. You're Exactly. Not to do anything.

I think I think

we went through

3 or 4 talk therapists.

And, finally, I said, this is enough. Nothing is getting better, and I started doing research

as a compulsion.

It was,

but it did help me.

I did eventually figure out that I was

suffering from OCD, and that got me on to the IOCDF

website.

And I found a local therapist, and finally, when I went there, the therapist said, you have OCD. That's what you got.

And I was finally like, wow.

Okay. Well, now that I know what's going on with my brain,

now I can finally start working towards getting better.

Mhmm. But it it was all on me. Was he super nonchalant when he heard your snip? Because that's what we always go to treatment providers who are like, what? These intrusive thoughts. And then you go to an OCD specialist, and they're like, that's all you got?

Yeah. One lady actually one of the therapists actually said after I told her, she was like, you don't want to, though. Right? I was like,

oh my god. I don't know.

Miserable at the beginning of the day. Do you want it? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. But it it it was a complete disaster, and none of them thought to say, hey. You might have OCD. I'm not the right person for that. Please go see an OCD therapist. Here's a couple of names. None of them know about it. Yep. It's insane to me, and it's one of the most common mental illnesses out there. That's that's the other crazy part. Well, I wonder, like, treatable. So it's like if we could actually get people in the door for the right treatment

Exactly. Well, I I wonder if it's because of these therapists who are more of the talk variety that people don't get diagnosed. Well, I'm going to therapy. I I'm talking to somebody about it. They haven't diagnosed me with it. It's like, right.

Maybe because maybe that's why the 17 years

is is the problem too because they're going to therapy. They think they're doing the right thing, but they're not told that

therapy like that, talk therapy for OCD is awful. You're going backwards.

Mhmm. And there's a lot of well meaning talk therapists and I but, you know, thank thankfully with the IOCDF, there are so many awesome trainings, and I've gotten to be a part of a lot of really cool things of even training clinicians around, nope. This is what OCD is, and here's how to refer or what treatment looks like. The the BTTI is great for training folks. But

I think

that I mean, that's a huge component of the 17 years. There's, one, the stigma of what OCD looks like in the media that isn't

OCD. So people see that, and then they say, well, that's not what I'm experiencing. I don't like to organize things, which is not what OCD is. So they assume they don't have it.

And then you end up going to a provider who thinks they can treat it if you get diagnosed,

and they can't.

It's just a very continuous cycle for a lot of people. But I'm so thankful now when I see kids again who are getting treated so much earlier, and I think it is starting to shrink a little bit, and and there's a lot of a lot of hope in that. And then also the, oh, I wish that was me.

Right. Right. Right. For sure. I know you're doing your part, and I've got we talk about it on this podcast, and I've got a little blog going, but

I I I wish there were more advocates for this kind of stuff. And and even training for doctors and

to recognize this,

it's mind boggling to me that

it took me

5 different people to finally

just get online and find out that

o oh, yeah. It's OCD. So you need to go see an OCD person. Mhmm. That's crazy.

Well, you mentioned IOCDF for us. So can you explain

what an IOCDF,

lead advocate is? So IOCDF

is the International

OCD Foundation,

and it is a fantastic foundation for all things obsessive compulsive disorder

from resources

and

very proud to have so many different resource pages

on the site from how to get treatment to finding treatment providers

to

live programming

on Facebook and on YouTube and on Instagram live. I was doing an Instagram live for them, like, 4 hours ago. We have stuff all the time.

But it's it's just an awesome organization and one of the few mental health organizations that I know that focuses on resources for clinicians

and for researchers

and also for individuals with OCD

and for families and now for faith leaders. And that that's been a big component of of what I get to do with them. But even the conferences,

there's a yearly

in person conference that is the most fun event under the sun because everyone comes together

in community and learns, but also

has just a fantastic time advocating and and so many different things. So it's

organization that's around that, but also virtual conferences throughout the year. And, I have the pleasure of serving as

one of the lead advocates.

There's a group of we have is it 5 or 6 of us? 5 or 5 of us. We have a group of lead and national advocates that are kind of the spokespeople for the organization

and get to

talk about different areas, advocate, and we lead all of the other advocates within the organization and help train folks to kinda speak up about OCD.

Wow. That's the that's the resource I use to find my treatment

partner.

I mean It it worked well, and I read a lot of stories on there. And like I said, it was compulsive,

but it helped me until I could get in to to see somebody. And that's that's another problem that I've I'd noticed was the length of time from contacting an ERP therapist to being able to actually start. It was

6 months, I think, is what it took me. So I had to sit with that for 6 months. It was awful.

And then insurance coverage is another Yes. For folks

too of often, people end up with talk therapists because insurance doesn't necessarily cover their their ERP provider. It didn't cover mine. Nope. Out of pocket. I went to 2, and neither one of them

was covered by insurance, but I paid it. It was desperation at that point, but it was expensive.

Mhmm. And it was once a week. But, I mean, to that point, there's people who can't pay out of pocket. Right? So, again, you the 17 years, it could be because of that. And

there were a lot of things we researched during that time. There was a,

what was it called? A trial, I think, in Texas.

Yes. I cannot remember what it was. Do you? I just know it was in Texas, and it was, like, a

7 day long, and they had an stupid. Yeah. Burning. That's it. That's it. Yes. Trolls. That's how I remember Virgins.

Like, that was a big thing for a little bit. Yeah. Right.

Do you have any

experience with that or anyone that has maybe gone to that that you've spoken to?

You know, I I am not

an expert in that by any means. It's really interesting. The reason I know about it,

is

actually when I was in my own OCD treatment journey, when I was really sick, I went to my first IOCDF

conference long before I was connected with them or spoke or did anything related to OCD and it was still I didn't want anybody to know, in Right. Kind of my public role. And I went to a little seminar there on the Bergen Method, and I was just in such desperation at that point. I was looking for anything and trying to find something, but ended up getting treatment in my area. And so I I really don't know. It's not something I've heard folks talk about for a very long time to be honest. Desperate. Yeah.

Well, it's weird too because it's not really

prevalent here. I think it's it was developed in another country,

and it's still it they still do it there, but here, it was like one spot in the entire US that did it.

Mhmm. And I had to fly to I think it was Austin, Texas. Mhmm.

And I I am deathly afraid of flying, so I was gonna drive.

And at the time, we lived in DC. Yeah. And at the time, we were in in in Northern Virginia area, and it was it was a nightmare. And we ended up not doing it. Because you got into the A second therapist, which

her methods were much better than my first one. So my first therapist

method was real old school. It was like habitual thinking.

Mhmm.

Mhmm. And

I couldn't habituate

feeling comfortable with harming my kid. I mean,

who would?

My my next one, she was,

you know, she was more of a natural

ERP

therapist. I don't know how to how else to say it, but she

said it's more about the response prevention

than that exposure.

Those thoughts are gonna pop up, but it's about what you do with them is the important part. So

she kinda just let it go

Mhmm. And she taught me how to prevent myself from spinning up

and questioning. She was like,

pretend like it's a it's a butterfly landing on your arm. You look at it, you acknowledge it, and then you just let it be.

Whether or not it's gonna fly away,

it doesn't matter. It can stay there. You know it's there,

but

that's all you have to do with it.

It's I love that. And that's such like an act and an acceptance commitment therapy component too, which goes as such a great adjunct for so many people doing ERP.

And what you highlighted,

it's been such a shift even in the field as much as I've worked on the religious side from just

hard hitting, scariest possible exposure to really a focus on

the response prevention. And, I have a good friend, doctor Emily Bailey, who always says little e and big r

p. And it's it's really about

the RP. And that was my problem for a long time in treatment. I was like, I can do the hardest exposure, and then I would ruminate for 12 hours. So it's that doesn't help.

That is so hard to stop.

Mhmm. Because it's just automatic. And and most people's brain, they ruminate on things. It's awful for anyone because that ends up leading to depression. It doesn't have to mean OCD. But

We actually had a running joke about rumination and that men have a nothing box. Right? Women are wired differently, and men have a nothing box. He couldn't go to his nothing box. It was our It it didn't exist. If I went into the nothing box, I would spin up and turn it into some kind of deathly thing. It was awful.

Yeah. That was my safe space. It was ruined.

Coming back to topic here.

No. So I think, ultimately,

when you both,

are talking about this, there's a lot of similar themes in your experiences.

And

what would you say is advice that you would give to someone either going through this or supporting someone? How would you want to be supported

in your experience?

So this is one of my favorite questions, and I think it's because we're all so different and this looks different for each and every

person. But I think, I always go back to

affirmation

without reassurance for someone who is offering support.

I love that.

The difficult feelings, the different emotions that they're having

without reassuring the content. So with my partner,

him and I are a little different in our responses. He actually responds better to me being like, stop doing the kiwi compulsion.

I do not respond well to that. I respond very well to,

this is really hard. I know this is really hard for you right now. It sounds like your OCD

is really getting you stuck.

I'm not gonna give you reassurance right now, but I will sit with you in the midst of how difficult this is.

Yeah. I like that.

That's good training for a partner in

dealing with someone with OCD too because frustrations could be high. I didn't understand it. Lynz didn't really understand

it, so she didn't know how to respond to me

calling out for help

other than making me sleep outside. I'm just kidding.

Stop.

No. No. She was very supportive. She's the reason why I'm still here, truthfully, because I I would go through the bouts of depression with it. Like, am I gonna have to live with this forever?

And those were probably the lowest moments of my OCD.

Mhmm. Because

imagine thinking that, that you were going to have these harm thoughts about your kid for the rest of your life. That was awful.

And I hope that's why people even on this podcast today here is, you know,

we have been there. I I have certainly been there in that space of how could I possibly step forward. I think for everyone, it feels like this theme is the worst theme ever. I wish I had any other theme, and that's why you're stuck on that theme because that's

your

particular, you know,

thing. Yeah. It's your it's your size. But, you know, whatever

OCD is such a bully. OCD is such a liar. And as much as it feels in this moment like it's impossible to step forward,

there is so much hope.

There is help with evidence based treatment.

And you are,

regardless of your intrusive thoughts or what OCD says,

so deserving of stepping forward, and it will not be

this hard forever. You just have to take that leap.

Yep. And I think I think to go along with that, don't be afraid to tell

an ERP

OCD specialist about your thoughts. They're not you.

Mhmm. They're not you. And all of them, because some people are like, well, I can't tell them those thoughts. Like, no. Tell them. You have to. Open it up. Yep. Open book because they've heard it all.

Absolutely.

Okay. You get in working religious scrupulosity cases. I hear this every day from folks. They're like, oh, you're a minister. I don't know that I can say this. I'm like, no.

I I always am like I'm like, I will give you, like, 10 $1,000 if you can tell me something that, like, really impresses me with what you're obsessed with.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Mine morphed a couple of times,

but it always went back to harm. That was, like, my main theme. But

I would tell the new theme to the therapist. It was, like, okay.

That's it. I was like, really?

So you have heard this before. Yes. I've been doing this for 25 years. I've heard everything. Mhmm.

Exactly.

Well, let's let's switch gears just a little bit. How how do these ultra marathons work? How did you get into them?

What is this

craziness? I have never seen anybody run and smile at the same time.

Well and and before you answer that, how long is 1 ultra marathon?

Yeah. So they're all different lengths. An ultra marathon is really anything that's longer than a marathon, and I run all trail races. So I

run 32 100 mile trail races kind of depending on the state.

And,

I You could see our faces right now.

Yeah. Flash. But it was very different. I was so I was a collegiate runner and a competitive

triathlete for a long time, and speed was

everything to me. It's kind of different for me in ultras. I do it so much for fun now. My motto is running toward my values. And just like we move toward our values, allowing all of the intrusive thoughts to be there with OCD, for me, every step forward is

literally running toward everything I care about. It's my space of self care. So I was able to kinda combine that with meaningful work around OCD. So I'm raising

one in every state and simultaneously

raising money for someone seeking OCD treatment in that state. So I get to kinda help someone else run toward their values in that process.

That's awesome.

So do you have any links for this stuff? Because I do wanna put it in the show notes.

I do. I will definitely

share because there's some neat things both with the 50 ultras, and then I know we talked some about faith, OCD, religious scrupulosity.

And this was not in my bio yet because this is, like, sort of known and sort of not right now. It's getting ready to officially drop. But the beginning of April, I'm

launching an iOS app for faith in OCD

that is 247

support for scrupulosity,

support groups by faith tradition, trainings for clergy,

clinicians,

individuals with OCD, all sorts of staff. So that's

kind of been,

and that's been the core of my doctoral work as well. And I'm so excited,

especially for individuals across religious and spiritual traditions who are feeling shame and don't have access to treatment

to be able to kind of create a space to start getting support and getting plugged in with providers. So I'll share

all the things that are that are Absolutely. Me out. Yeah. That's awesome. If you weren't in the fan before, you are now. Like, that is amazing.

Yes. So That is awesome.

The the more that that is out there, OCD is in people's minds.

Even just seeing a search result on an iOS app store Yeah. Could be life changing.

And that's that is so important.

And it's all about hope with it too. That the app is called the app is called stick with the ick, and that is kind of my catchphrase with all things OCD. So stick with the ick. I always say stick with the ick while you keep running towards your values. And stick with the

ick essentially means, yeah, we can let all of that scary stuff be there. We can let all of the icky stuff be there, and we can keep moving toward everything we care about.

I'm gonna make so many t shirts with all of your phrases. I am just

I

hey. I'm in the fam now. We can, you know, we can share. It's it's actually I love

getting folks doing things with different phrases. The running toward my values. Somebody in, one of the groups that I run actually wrote a song about running toward their values, and it's a whole o c so it's it's so neat to see.

I'm such a big proponent of everybody can advocate and share things through their own lens, whether for me, it's running toward my values. Some people, it's doing art toward their values or painting or writing. So I think it's so neat to take all of these different things and for folks to be able to figure out what how is that meaningful to them as they advocate.

Right. That's awesome.

Alright. And we're gonna switch gears

one more time.

What would you do tomorrow

if you won $10,000,000

tonight? We've had some really good answers to this one, so you gotta bring it. I'm pretty sure Katie's gonna take the cake on this one. That's for sure. Oh, gosh. That's so much better. You know,

I

it's

there's, like, the the quirky part of me wants to have, like, a really funny hysterical answer, but the honest part of me is I would literally pay for treatment for as many people as possible. Then with

the app or with 50 ultras or any of these things, I wish

that I could do so much more. And I know we can only each do so much, but it would just be the biggest, most wonderful possible thing to be able to support others in their treatment journeys financially the way that people did for me because that's why I'm here, and everyone is so deserving of that.

Took the cake and ate the crumbs. That's right.

I knew it. I knew it.

I placed a bet before we did this podcast.

Y'all are awesome.

Alright.

Well, to wrap up, where can people find you online and your business?

Yes.

So you can find me on Instagram at revkrunsbeyondocd.

You can head over to my website atrevkatiodun.com.

And

shortly, it is not up quite yet, but it will be, stick with the ick.com as well. And they'll also be the iOS app, stick with the ick, starting the beginning of April.

And there's links to

50 ultras and deciding up for wait list for the app and all that stuff on my website. So you can head to all of these fun places.

We'll be sure to include all the links we can on her show today. We cannot thank you enough for joining. Seriously, it has been such a joy. Seriously. Yep. I've got a great team too. I wanna come back. I just wanna hang out with y'all. This is super fun.

I mean, we're here. Yeah. We're into it. For sure. For sure. We will certainly call you back and have you join us again. Thank you again, and we will talk about that app coming up. Can't wait.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to the Unholy Union podcast.

Wanna be a super fan? Join the Unholy Union Patreon for ad free early access to all of our episodes atpatreon.com/unholyunion.

For more Unholy Union content, check out our social media at Unholy Union cast on Instagram and Twitter. We also have Facebook and TikTok.

Wanna support the podcast? Rock some merch. Check out our merchandise store on our site at store.unholyunionpodcast.com.

See you at the next episode.

It's what you do with things you love.